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2016-10-10 09:57:52> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U04DFTZ7D> set the channel purpose: echOpen impact on public health
2016-10-10 09:57:52> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S> has joined the channel
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2016-11-01 20:59:33> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U2X419KJS>: here we can talk about public health !! And impact
2016-11-01 21:03:43> @U2X419KJS: Great, <@U04DFTZ7D> !
2016-11-01 21:05:53> @U2X419KJS: Well I would like to know if you already have a plan or we must create one
2016-11-01 21:07:33> @U2X419KJS: And how is the workflow?
2016-11-02 09:05:43> @U04DFTZ7D: Dear <@U2X419KJS> we have disccused the public health impact matters, but we do not yet have a plan to explore it. So if you want to create one, you are welcome :wink: Usually, when someone is intereted in exploring a specific question, we let him/her taking the lead on the topic and then we try to mobilize the community to work all together. How would you consider working on this topic and what would be your needs ?
2016-11-02 09:57:22> @U0B47KC3S: btw, you should know that we can connect you to the eco-system of french medicine students, specialising in public health -
2016-11-02 19:45:51> @U2X419KJS: That's great! Well first of all
2016-11-02 19:46:32> @U2X419KJS: we must be able to build one prototype
2016-11-02 19:46:43> @U2X419KJS: in Peru
2016-11-02 19:47:17> @U2X419KJS: As I told you I'm electronics engineer
2016-11-02 19:47:37> @U2X419KJS: and Miguel is physician
2016-11-02 19:47:57> @U2X419KJS: rest of our team has the same skills
2016-11-02 19:51:22> @U2X419KJS: I think the money is our main challenge
2016-11-02 19:52:27> @U2X419KJS: We could present the echopen to different national or regional contests
2016-11-02 19:53:25> @U2X419KJS: How do you handle this topic? About fundraising?
2016-11-02 23:24:13> @U0B47KC3S: hi <@U2X419KJS> perhaps we should schedule a skype about this challenging topic. What do you think ?
2016-11-03 00:20:49> @U2X419KJS: For me, it's OK.
2016-11-03 00:23:01> @U2X419KJS: Meanwhile, we could start with a draft of the plan
2016-11-03 00:23:42> @U2X419KJS: Is Google Docs OK for u ?
2016-11-03 00:25:50> @U0B47KC3S: sure it is Ok
2016-11-03 03:32:18> @U2X419KJS: I have only the info email. Which are your emails for sharing the doc?
2016-11-07 19:27:43> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S> set the channel topic: dedicated to echOpen's social impact and public health issues
2016-11-09 11:59:52> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U2X419KJS> did you received the email adresses i sent you ?
2016-11-09 13:18:12> @U2X419KJS: Hi <@U04DFTZ7D> yes, I did. I will create a Google Docs
2016-11-09 13:20:22> @U04DFTZ7D: Wonderfull !! Remain at your disposal ;)
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2016-11-14 01:37:55> @U2X419KJS: I've already created the folder: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5a5rG3SCQwbelFPTE5nUmZxUm8
2016-11-14 10:50:53> @U04DFTZ7D: Thank you <@U2X419KJS> it’s great. How would you organize the development now ? Maybe it would be nice to write down some first insight and then we will mobilize some member of the community to join and add feedback, ideas and such. What do you think ? We already have a few people interested in this topic. To let you know more about the medical aspects of the project, please see this document : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dDmV-sMrCLdtwd9k11UL-t6TSR78zH596wkF8029xR8/edit (it’s a google translated document from a workshop held at echOpen a few month ago) and i added a copy in the sharded folder.
2016-11-14 12:13:01> @U2X419KJS: Great! It's a good example
2016-11-14 12:13:18> @U2X419KJS: You have important information
2016-11-14 12:14:06> @U2X419KJS: I was thinking to ask Open Biomedical Initiative
2016-11-14 12:15:00> @U04DFTZ7D: Yes, sure. That would be great to engage Open Biomedical Initiative !!
2016-11-14 12:15:00> @U2X419KJS: How they are validating their prosthetic and incubator
2016-11-14 12:15:26> @U2X419KJS: Oh, they are my friends
2016-11-14 12:15:57> @U2X419KJS: I think if you want after our first meeting
2016-11-14 12:16:22> @U2X419KJS: We could schedule an second meeting with them :)
2016-11-14 12:18:11> @U04DFTZ7D: Sure, that would be great. But could you confirm your availabilities for our first meeting ?
2016-11-14 14:36:31> @U2X419KJS: I asked Miguel and he can participate the next week. This week we have the APEC and we will be part of some meetings
2016-11-14 14:36:50> @U2X419KJS: Please let me know if it is possible
2016-11-14 15:45:12> @U04DFTZ7D: Great, next week will be perfect, let us know.
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2016-11-15 01:51:10> @U0B47KC3S: hi there, a word to say that we will pitch echOpen in a session organize by the center for Translational Science of Institut Pasteur International Network about clinical trials on animals. The idea is that Institut Pasteur have developed humanised mices with liver and humanised immune system. This conference is also held by Institut Curie, one reference cancer center, which also developed animal models cc <@U0FN1B8KD>
2016-11-15 01:51:36> @U0B47KC3S: Just a word of context : we have built up a working group with Institut Pasteur, in order to calibrate the future trials. We identified some pathologies : liver -> cancer, differential diagnosis of liver mass and thyroid surgery -> diagnosis of goitre #position #vascularisation. (reactions: @U2X419KJS,@U1NTT0ZPH)
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2016-11-16 09:35:21> @U3267ST8C: Hi there, this is Lorenzo, Cardiologist from Italy
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2016-11-16 09:40:42> @U0B47KC3S: hi colleague, springwing glad to see you there I am Mehdi, working on number of things here, and also android app. I am an epidemiologist at Hôtel Dieu Hospital
2016-11-16 09:43:02> @U3267ST8C: Hi Mehdi
2016-11-16 10:14:42> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U3267ST8C>: we have a call Monday at 8.00 pm (Paris time) with <@U2X419KJS> to discuss Public health impact on Skype. Would you like to join ?
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2016-11-16 17:32:12> @U2X419KJS: yes, it would be really intersting to have more people
2016-11-16 17:52:49> @U04DFTZ7D: Wonderful !! and then we will mobilize more people within the community as soon as we will have setup the method and the goals of the project. Looking forward for the skype on Monday…
2016-11-17 08:58:58> @U04DFTZ7D: Just talk with <@U32UWGGN9> also interested in the topic ;) he will work with us on gathering the current medical common knowledge of echOpen ;) he is a public health student based in Paris. <@U32UWGGN9> I let you give more detail about your profil ? (reactions: @U32UWGGN9)
2016-11-17 10:32:51> @U32UWGGN9: Hi sure! I am happy to work with you on the public health impact. I will try to assemble the knowledge on medical aspects of the project in the near future. On the long term, I am interested in assessing the public health impact of echOpen :slightly_smiling_face: I studied at SciencesPo and a http://M.Sc. in epidemiology afterwards. I have expertise in epidemiologic studies and some evaluation skills. Will be happy to contribute! (reactions: @U0B47KC3S,@U04DFTZ7D,@U2X419KJS)
2016-11-17 23:36:43> @U0FN1B8KD: We set the core stone for collaboration with IRD in order to investigate the interest of the echopen probe on liver applications and especially in Laos, where acces to medical imaging and anatomopathology is very scarce, and liver pathology letals (cancer and parasits in particular). This will be a 3 year clinical research project starting in september 2017 and working with IRD. With IRD researchers together, we are to prepare the protocol and apply for a european grant (Pierre et Marie Curie) . Anyone interested in this topic should not hesitate to join.
2016-11-17 23:57:08> @U0B47KC3S: indeed amazing working diner :wink: besides clinical trials concerns (see <#C2MAANG0P>), some researchers gave some parasitology highlights where I learned that some parasites infects and disrupts crickets neuro-system and get them to throw themselves to water, just because they need water to complete their reproduction cycles
2016-11-17 23:57:08> @U0B47KC3S: loved it cc emilie !
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2016-11-19 13:19:45> @U3267ST8C: Sorry for my late answer, I'm not gonna be available for the call on Monday night, but let me know how's going on
2016-11-19 13:19:55> @U3267ST8C: I'll be out of office until Wednesday
2016-11-21 11:14:45> @U04DFTZ7D: Thanks <@U3267ST8C> no problem, we will let you know and share with ou the information.
2016-11-22 11:35:40> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U2X419KJS> thank for your time yesterday, it was very interesting :wink:. To sum up our discussion i understand that you would be interested in both medical and technical aspect of the project. - Building with you local community an echOpen dev kit, following our documentation (that we will soon release) i’ll send it to you ASAP. This topic is discussed in the channel <#C07NJQ6LE> - Working on medical impact of such a device Could you describe how you would consider working on the medical impact analysis ?
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2016-12-12 11:07:18> @U3CDR25JP: <@U3CDR25JP>
2016-12-12 11:08:02> @Hyacinthe: <@U3CDR25JP>: a 2015 review of Portable Ultrasound Devices in the Pre-Hospital Setting
2016-12-12 11:12:12> @U04DFTZ7D: thanks <@U3CDR25JP> but the document is not open to be red ! Could you open the access ?
2016-12-12 11:14:04> @U3CDR25JP: yes I'm working on it ! sorry I thought adding the document with ggdriv would work but apparently I should have upload it the old way..
2016-12-12 11:14:36> @U3CDR25JP: <@U3CDR25JP>
2016-12-12 11:19:47> @U04DFTZ7D: Thanks <@U3CDR25JP>
2016-12-12 11:34:27> @U3CDR25JP: <@U3CDR25JP> and commented: Standards for Reporting Diagnostic accuracy studies
2016-12-12 12:30:53> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U3CDR25JP> btw, for the record, we are currently developing in my department at hôtel-dieu hospital, a website to write articles driven by these types of guidelines
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2016-12-15 12:13:51> @U33817K25: hi all, i'm not sure to post this in the right channel, but here's a report by Cour des Comptes on medical imaging in hospitals and ambulatory medicine in France, presenting the situation on heavy equipments (not so interesting for us), medical imaging practice dynamics (volumetry, expenses, prices) and human resources (demography, hiring, etc.). Might be interesting to read
2016-12-15 12:14:15> @U33817K25: dating april 2016
2016-12-15 12:14:55> @U33817K25: <@U33817K25>
2016-12-15 12:33:34> @U33817K25: and they mention portable and even ultraportable echography
2016-12-15 18:30:33> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U2MF267L2> As discussed last friday, could you send us the papers about liver and ultrasounds ? thx!
2016-12-15 23:25:49> @U2MF267L2: <@U2MF267L2>
2016-12-15 23:30:42> @U2MF267L2: This paper talks about liver transplant not cancer because my screening is not focused on cancer ... (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2016-12-15 23:58:52> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U2MF267L2>, very interesting :ok_hand:
2016-12-15 23:58:55> @U0B47KC3S: btw, do you know eric vibert ? one of our best liver transplant surgeon, he is in our community and can’t wait test echOpen :wink: we had a meeting with pierre nahon and jean-charles nault, who are liver cancer specialist, and they want to conduct trials to confimr interest of handheld ultrasound devices in resuscitation service, for ascitic punctures and such
2016-12-16 18:41:30> @U2MF267L2: Hi i am late for tonight i ll be there for 19h 19h30 sorry
2016-12-16 18:42:40> @U0AAL4W13: Still stuck at work, probably won't come :/
2016-12-16 18:43:10> @U0FN1B8KD: I will be there round 19h15-30 as well
2016-12-16 18:45:26> @U04DFTZ7D: All right, no problem :wink:
2016-12-16 18:45:36> @U04DFTZ7D: we will be there :wink:
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2016-12-29 20:51:33> @U0B47KC3S: <@U3CDR25JP> <@U0FN1B8KD> here is the echOpen’s main intro guide you may know : https://echopen.gitbooks.io/starterkit/content/ Btw, to set up a team , <@U04DFTZ7D> could you send the dedicated link ?
2016-12-30 12:16:33> @U0B47KC3S: <@U3CDR25JP> <@U0FN1B8KD> : here’s the <@U04DFTZ7D>'s link : https://github.com/echOpenHQ/ADMIN-echOpen/blob/master/Welcome%20in%20echOpen%20github.md
2016-12-30 12:18:03> @U3CDR25JP: Ça marche pas !
2016-12-30 12:21:19> @U0B47KC3S: ok, auth issue, here’s again
2016-12-30 12:21:33> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S>
2016-12-30 12:22:26> @U0B47KC3S: <@U04DFTZ7D> do you think we should put the Welcome in echOpen github.md in the starter kit ?
2016-12-30 12:42:06> @U04DFTZ7D: Yes it will be added soon. I'll take care of it early January with also the acoustic introduction, etc.
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2017-01-11 18:01:47> @U0FN1B8KD: Started a https://echopen.slack.com/call/R3QSLBSCF.
2017-01-11 18:44:36> @U0FN1B8KD: Hello everyone ! With <@U3CDR25JP> et <@U3N1SENJY> we have started to prepare a clinical trial. We are applying for a Pierre et Marie Curie funding for a clinical study in Lao, with a team of IRD that works on finding biological markers for hepato carcinoma diagnostic. The idea is to show the interest of echopen for liver application and moreover the follow up of liver cancer. We wonder if we should compare echopen to a classical echograph or a Vscan, depending also of what we could have, and who would be able to come. <@U0B47KC3S> <@U2MF267L2> <@U3Q46QRHU>, what do you think ? (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-01-11 18:45:28> @U0FN1B8KD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGsaSywsreWiG4kEYWmRd-4gv6WVIFNcUJ_3Jj60c1w/edit
2017-01-11 18:46:22> @U0FN1B8KD: (our work document, still a draft for now)
2017-01-12 22:59:03> @U3N1SENJY: I think we should compare Echopen to a classical echograph
2017-01-12 23:41:36> @U0AAL4W13: I'd go for a vscan
2017-01-12 23:42:08> @U0AAL4W13: The echostethoscope does not have the same features as a full-fledged echograph
2017-01-12 23:42:21> @U0AAL4W13: You can't so the same things
2017-01-12 23:42:48> @U0AAL4W13: The buyer is not the same (hospitals buy echographs, medical staff buy echostethoscope)
2017-01-13 09:41:14> @U0FN1B8KD: I guess we should also have in mind what is actually possible. Could we come to Lao with an echograph ? a Vscan ? <@U04DFTZ7D>
2017-01-13 10:01:04> @U3CDR25JP: I see 4 options for this trial in lao: comparing echOpen to a standard ultrasound probe : the best approach, allows to compute sensitivity and specificity, and say at the end, echopen has revealed 95% of the hepatic tumor we found with standard probe, so it is a usefull tool…it is challenging to find a probe but worth trying I think comparing echOpen to another echostethoscope : we already have a Vscan no ? so it will be easier..It is not a standard of reference but it can be argued and it is better than nothing .. comparing echOpen by a senior VS echOpen “health profesional with 48h formation” : this would not compare echOpen but the formation and the concept of forming health professional and no longer specialist to ultrasonography, this is easy to do since we only need echopen, and the results would be of great interest, we could test several longer of formation, test nurse versus resident vs anybody, and see how they compare to each other comparing echOpen to clinical exam : our outcome can’t be hepatic tumor since clinical exams don’t detect heaptic tumor.. so what would it be? we can only test usage as mhdi said which for me I understant as asking people who used echopen questions like : do you feel this probe would help you in your everyday practice? I don’t think that it is worth doing. (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2017-01-13 10:03:48> @U0FN1B8KD: I guess the clinical exam is hepatomegaly
2017-01-13 10:05:49> @U3CDR25JP: yes but to assess the performance you have to compare to something with higher accuracy like ultrasound probe or scanner, clinical exam is not a standard of reference to measure hepatomegaly
2017-01-13 10:08:58> @U3CDR25JP: so comparing clinical exam VS echopen for hepatomegaly actually gives you information about clinical exam, how good is clinical exam for hmg compared to echopen, but it does not give you information about the performance of echopen
2017-01-13 10:09:39> @U0FN1B8KD: I agree with you.
2017-01-13 10:10:15> @U0FN1B8KD: I guess it is a question of means
2017-01-13 10:22:43> @U0B47KC3S: yes <@U3CDR25JP> I agree largely with what you say. But, we must put this study into its context. What would be available for these populations who lack medical follow-up do not have access to a quality well structured health system. So we must have some more informations about the epidemiological context (rural populations,…). As unbelievable as it can seem, it is not rare that in some countries people are unfortunately diagnosed with huge masses, moreover I don’t dwell on co-morbidities. Anyway, I agree it is at best just a small part of the study, we should have an other comparator
2017-01-13 10:29:44> @U3CDR25JP: to go in you sense a bit, I would say that I don't think that echopen VS clinical exam is interesting for a performance outcome as how well I measure hmg or how many masses I discover, because I think echopen will be better and no one doubt it and so it is not a relevant question (you might argue this:), but echopen VS clinical exams could be assess for more long term outcome, like mortality or percentage of care, to see how the diffusion of echopen in this area changes the practies and health of these patients, if at the end it benefits them or not, the issue being that I doubt there will be a specific care for HCC in lao, as you said we could detect some cryptococcus and other infectious disease that could be cured and at the end we would see the difference ...I think though it would be much risky and probably need a very long time to be able to measure difference in our outcomes..
2017-01-13 10:31:11> @U3CDR25JP: (btw Im sorry for my terrible english)
2017-01-13 10:36:23> @U0FN1B8KD: Let not forget that we also compare to biology metabolites
2017-01-16 10:35:45> @U2V03QR8E: <@U2V03QR8E> has joined the channel
2017-01-16 20:50:35> @U0B47KC3S: [grant challenge Africa] feedback of a call I had today with Institut pasteur Madagascar epidemiology department 80 resarchers, 500 persons, 115 years old institution Number of networks demographic monitoring site -> 70.000 people [grant challenge Africa] Madagascar Institut Pasteur + echOpen trial on : monitoring pregnant woman who have risk of pre-eclampsia -> rural and semi-rural locality .this is major public health impact First cause of death : cardio-vascular diseases - highly correlated with high arterial blood pressure -> impact on pregnant woman 27% population ++ would begin in 9~12 months -> one ultrasound arm + clinical monitoring vs clinical biological + custom tool 20 SA : screening high blood pressure - ultrasound follow-up -> foetal development this will be assorted of research socio-anthropology before the monitoring : inquiry knowledge, local cultural background -> in order to educate midwives and nurses -> for example better understanding of hygiene-dietetic rules misbehaviours in population despite information campaigns -> understand why in Madagascar people do note speak of pregnancy till the 4th month <@U33817K25> if the pilot trial succeeds -> connection with Institut Pasteur partner -> Harvard to scale to a wide multi-centric trials in Africa Next meeting in Paris 30th january (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2017-01-16 22:15:50> @U0FN1B8KD: Meeting today with <@U3CDR25JP> and <@U0B47KC3S> : Lao draft demand grant : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGsaSywsreWiG4kEYWmRd-4gv6WVIFNcUJ_3Jj60c1w/edit -still working on the protocol : do we validate echopen only on liver masses or also acite? etc.... -we will have access to an echograph there : should it be the gold standard for the trial ?
2017-01-16 22:46:44> @U33817K25: <@U0B47KC3S> is the prevalence of preeclampsia so high in Madagascar, as compared with other countries with similar standard of living and access to care, that they suspect some anthropological and/or sociological factor would account for it ?
2017-01-16 23:13:46> @U0B47KC3S: in fact, eclampsia is in consequence with abnormal rate of high blood pressure in Madagascra for reason that are not clear. However, number of health and dietetic advices have not been followed by pregnant women, in part for sociological reason. Moreover, representation of pregnancy seem to be rather peculiar, in such way that pregnancy is not a discussed subject till 20 weeks. What are the determinants of such behaviours in order to improve the trial design, that’s what medical anthropologists, who are numerous in Madagascar Pasteru Institute are going to explore !
2017-01-16 23:48:43> @U33817K25: OK, the main risk factor at play in Madagascar is pre-pregnancy high blood pressure
2017-01-17 00:20:53> @U0B47KC3S: yes it has a lot of severe consequences -> maternal complications, such as epilepsy and fetal malformations
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2017-01-18 15:53:30> @U0B47KC3S: [Outcome Mapping] I am preparing a public health master course on Open Data, and I found this interesting doc about the methodology of how measuring impact. Sure this will be helpful for us one day :grinning: cc <@U2X419KJS> <@U33817K25> <@U04DFTZ7D>
2017-01-18 15:53:31> @U0B47KC3S: http://www.outcomemapping.ca/download/OM_English_final.pdf
2017-01-18 15:56:58> @U0B47KC3S: the idea here is to complete direct impact measures, which can be difficult, by a better understanding of changes within behaviors, relationships of people directly involved
2017-01-18 16:00:15> @U33817K25: Interesting :relaxed:
2017-01-19 14:30:05> @U3T7KBEMV: excellent doc, thanks ! the accessibility of the probe could improve all the follow up during pregnancy because it would contribute to (re)organise the follow up program in some areas and so improve détection of risk factors... and it could be the same thing with liver diseases. Managing to detect and demonstrate these outcome impact will be decisive (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-01-19 17:34:36> @U0FN1B8KD: Call with <@U0B47KC3S> and Eric Concerning the patrtership with IRD, here is the doc we need to fill for echopen for the grant applications, only focusing on echopen. Then Eric will incorporate it to his metabolomic demand. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q3RpUObJeviJijokr_lNJZUEGIUMBDqs_SbTvd8hSSQ/edit. <@U3CDR25JP> and <@U3N1SENJY> , this is the document we should now focus now. How to fill it? answer here : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5a5rG3SCQwbelFPTE5nUmZxUm8. -I started (with the title and a bit more)
2017-01-19 19:00:12> @U3CDR25JP: Ok thanks <@U0FN1B8KD> . When is the due date for this document?
2017-01-19 19:01:59> @U0FN1B8KD: the ultimate one is mid february but we need to give it to eric before that
2017-01-19 19:02:32> @U0FN1B8KD: i guess before the end of the month
2017-01-19 19:02:45> @U0FN1B8KD: but we can leave-out the other
2017-01-19 19:03:13> @U3CDR25JP: Ok and what Eric said about the trial in Lao? For the prognosis part how did he intend to diagnose hcc ?
2017-01-19 19:03:50> @U3CDR25JP: Ok the other document is out to date?
2017-01-19 19:04:09> @U0FN1B8KD: what do you mean out to date?
2017-01-19 19:04:40> @U3CDR25JP: We don't need to fill it anymore or have you finished to fill it with mehdi ?
2017-01-19 19:05:10> @U0FN1B8KD: The cohort is only made of infected patient with hepatite viral . they have incredibly high level of viral charge
2017-01-19 19:05:48> @U0FN1B8KD: they are going to use the viral charge of the patients
2017-01-19 19:06:02> @U0FN1B8KD: does it makes sense?
2017-01-19 19:07:16> @U3CDR25JP: Ok to assess the worsening of the disease
2017-01-19 19:07:24> @U0FN1B8KD: I have put my notes about the call at the end of mecovir cr https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGsaSywsreWiG4kEYWmRd-4gv6WVIFNcUJ_3Jj60c1w/edit (in french sorry)
2017-01-19 19:07:47> @U0FN1B8KD: we don't need to fill it anymore
2017-01-19 19:07:54> @U0FN1B8KD: only the transcan document
2017-01-19 19:08:30> @U0FN1B8KD: however the WP package chart is a good way to organise our ideas and it is exactly the same things we need to do
2017-01-19 19:08:42> @U0FN1B8KD: so it is just a diferent form
2017-01-19 19:09:10> @U0FN1B8KD: do not hesitate to coment my notes if you do not understand them
2017-01-19 19:09:29> @U0FN1B8KD: or the transcan document i have start to fill
2017-01-19 19:10:51> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U3T7KBEMV> Welcome in team! we are glad to have you with us ! :slightly_smiling_face: if you have any question do not hesitate to ping me
2017-01-19 19:10:53> @U3CDR25JP: Ok but I am not sure to understand what have been decided for the comparison
2017-01-19 19:11:04> @U3CDR25JP: Echopen or standard echo
2017-01-19 19:11:24> @U0FN1B8KD: we are going to compare echopen to the echograph in ventiane
2017-01-19 19:11:35> @U0FN1B8KD: and form health professional in laos
2017-01-19 19:11:53> @U3CDR25JP: Perfect it is the best thing to do
2017-01-19 19:12:05> @U0FN1B8KD: It is our job to figure out the clinical terms of it
2017-01-19 19:12:15> @U3CDR25JP: Clinical terms?
2017-01-19 19:12:22> @U3CDR25JP: What do you mean?
2017-01-19 19:12:24> @U0FN1B8KD: Am i right <@U0B47KC3S> ? do you agree?
2017-01-19 19:12:35> @U0AAL4W13: In terms of certification, will the echopen tool need to-be certified for the trial?
2017-01-19 19:12:44> @U3CDR25JP: Apparently not
2017-01-19 19:13:01> @U3CDR25JP: But it is a bit shameful to take advantage of this
2017-01-19 19:13:02> @U0FN1B8KD: That is a question I asked eric, he is gonna check with the specialist in his team
2017-01-19 19:13:13> @U3CDR25JP: Be better to have it right?
2017-01-19 19:13:13> @U0FN1B8KD: he said Lao is quite easy on this topic
2017-01-19 19:13:21> @U0FN1B8KD: sure
2017-01-19 19:13:41> @U3CDR25JP: How long does it take do you have an idea Emilie?
2017-01-19 19:14:08> @U0AAL4W13: Still, could be dangerous in terms of quality of the study isn'tit ?
2017-01-19 19:14:36> @U0FN1B8KD: What is certain : we need to be certain it is safe, however, validation can take a while because of administrative boring stuff, so if we dont have the stamp yet but the proof maybe it is ok?
2017-01-19 19:15:11> @U3CDR25JP: But I guess it can't me more than 3 month no?
2017-01-19 19:15:14> @U0FN1B8KD: he also said that we will know our specificity in terms of frequency power
2017-01-19 19:15:31> @U0FN1B8KD: certinly
2017-01-19 19:15:37> @U3CDR25JP: What does that mean?
2017-01-19 19:15:42> @U3CDR25JP: Frequency power
2017-01-19 19:15:43> @U0FN1B8KD: I think it is never under 6 months
2017-01-19 19:15:55> @U3CDR25JP: Ok
2017-01-19 19:16:00> @U0FN1B8KD: the ultrasound frequency determine the power of it
2017-01-19 19:16:06> @U0FN1B8KD: Am i right luc?
2017-01-19 19:16:10> @U0AAL4W13: Not only in terms of safety, but also in terms of reliability
2017-01-19 19:16:12> @U0AAL4W13: Nope
2017-01-19 19:16:37> @U0FN1B8KD: nope to ?
2017-01-19 19:16:40> @U0AAL4W13: Whatever the frequency, you can push as much energy you any in it
2017-01-19 19:16:52> @U0AAL4W13: Any = want
2017-01-19 19:17:09> @U0FN1B8KD: ok
2017-01-19 19:17:24> @U0FN1B8KD: then the important thing is the energy I guess and to manage it
2017-01-19 19:17:38> @U0FN1B8KD: What is certain is we need to have test it completely
2017-01-19 19:17:50> @U0FN1B8KD: we do not want to be dangerous!
2017-01-19 19:17:54> @U0AAL4W13: I'd also emphasize on reliability
2017-01-19 19:17:57> @U3CDR25JP: Ok so we are sure it is not dangerous
2017-01-19 19:17:59> @U0FN1B8KD: or take any risk
2017-01-19 19:18:03> @U3CDR25JP: And reliable
2017-01-19 19:18:26> @U0FN1B8KD: we arent sure of anything yet we have not giot the finished object
2017-01-19 19:18:39> @U0FN1B8KD: but we need to have test everything before 2018
2017-01-19 19:18:40> @U0AAL4W13: It's not easy to work on a study with a probe that does not yield consistent results
2017-01-19 19:18:48> @U0AAL4W13: :)
2017-01-19 19:18:50> @U3CDR25JP: Yeo
2017-01-19 19:19:17> @U0AAL4W13: So this consistency/reliability needs to be assessed as well ><"
2017-01-19 19:19:30> @U3CDR25JP: Plus if we want to define our outcome we need to know what we can expect to see with it.
2017-01-19 19:19:32> @U0FN1B8KD: what do you mean reliability?
2017-01-19 19:21:18> @U0AAL4W13: Needs to be sure for example in a wireless usage that the wireless connection can be strong enough to avoid corrupted images / disconnections
2017-01-19 19:22:00> @U0AAL4W13: And any thing that would make the study a pain (bugs, reboots, electrical failures,....)
2017-01-19 19:24:13> @U0FN1B8KD: oh yeah that is sure !!!
2017-01-19 19:26:53> @U0FN1B8KD: For everyone : Call with <@U0B47KC3S> and Eric Concerning the patrtership with IRD, here is the doc we need to fill for echopen for the grant applications, only focusing on echopen. Then Eric will incorporate it to his metabolomic demand. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q3RpUObJeviJijokr_lNJZUEGIUMBDqs_SbTvd8hSSQ/edit. <@U3CDR25JP> and <@U3N1SENJY> , this is the document we should now focus now. How to fill it? answer here : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5a5rG3SCQwbelFPTE5nUmZxUm8. -I started (with the title and a bit more)
2017-01-19 19:29:47> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U0JFW4XTQ> This channel may interest you :wink:
2017-01-19 19:37:32> @U0JFW4XTQ: <@U0JFW4XTQ> has joined the channel
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2017-01-24 16:13:40> @U3T7KBEMV: Hi ! I talked to <@U0FN1B8KD> yesterday and she suggested me that it could be useful to write a sort of short document about littérature context and presentation of the project. So we could have a quickly available doc for other writings (like transcan). What do you think about that ? <@U04DFTZ7D> <@U0B47KC3S> ?
2017-01-24 16:20:03> @U04DFTZ7D: Thanks <@U3T7KBEMV> we might have something that meet your need. But could you be more specific ? What do you mean by litterature context ? What is transcan ? And what about the purpose of the document at the end, to make sure the document meet it's goals ? Remain at your disposal to discuss about it :wink:
2017-01-24 16:50:08> @U3T7KBEMV: littérature context : papers supporting our project in different points (experience of other team about collaborative projects in health, need of echography in routine, difficulties of having such material in rural areas... (you may have lot of documents about that, the purpose of the doc wil be to make a synthesis of them) Maybe we have already that of course! Transcan-2 is the name of the global project linked with the IRD partnership which was talking about above :slightly_smiling_face:
2017-01-24 17:12:38> @U04DFTZ7D: Thanks <@U3T7KBEMV> we have <@U2MF267L2> who is currently running a meta analysis which should be ready soon on the medical littérature. Then we have some bibliography available on the wiki and soon on a repository on GitHub. And thanks for the explanation ;)
2017-01-24 17:18:46> @U3T7KBEMV: great ! Thank for the update :slightly_smiling_face:
2017-01-26 09:51:02> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0FN1B8KD> you may be interested in a work done by the French ultrasound working group (which I'm part of) especially for this project of yours for liver
2017-01-26 09:51:16> @U0AAL4W13: what they do is as follows : La première thématique d’émergence de projets de R&D collaboratifs public/privé qui a été retenue concerne la « Standardisation de l’imagerie multiparamétrique échographique, et plus particulièrement de l’élastographie et de l’échographie de contraste, pour les études multicentriques des hépatopathies diffuses et des lésions primitives ou secondaires tumorales ». L’acronyme retenu pour cette initiative est SUMIL « Standardisation of Ultrasound Multiparametric Imaging for Liver».
2017-01-26 09:51:52> @U0AAL4W13: there's a call for expression of interest coming today I believe, can share this if you're interested
2017-01-26 09:52:34> @U0AAL4W13: L’objectif de cet Appel à Manifestation d’Intérêt national lancé auprès des autres pôles de compétitivité nationaux et auprès du cluster Québécois Medteq est d’identifier des partenaires académiques / cliniques et industriels qui seraient intéressés par une participation au projet. Pour ce faire, je vous invite à compléter la Fiche de Manifestation d’intérêt Excel ci-jointe et me la retourner pour le vendredi 27 janvier 2017 au plus tard. Les organismes (public ou privé) et pôles de compétitivité qui m’auront transmis une fiche de manifestation d’intérêt seront invités à une réunion plénière d’information et de présentation mutuelle qui sera organisée chez Medicen Paris Region le jeudi 9 février à 14h00 (salle Donny Strosberg). D’autres réunions suivront et permettront de stratifier le/les consortium(s) public / privé autour de l’initiative SUMIL.
2017-01-26 09:53:20> @U0AAL4W13: could be a interesting to be part of this ;)
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2017-01-26 19:18:03> @U0FN1B8KD: woaw this is tomorrow ! hard
2017-01-26 19:21:08> @U0FN1B8KD: luc: could you share the doc? I wont have time before tomorrow but maybe <@U0B47KC3S> <@U3N1SENJY> or <@U3CDR25JP> ?
2017-01-26 19:39:38> @U0AAL4W13: ^^
2017-01-26 19:40:04> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0AAL4W13>
2017-01-26 20:06:05> @Hyacinthe: <@U0FN1B8KD> would you have time? ( I dont;...)
2017-01-26 22:10:54> @U0B47KC3S: dear fellows, I am for some days out of France :wink: but I’ll check if I can !
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2017-02-01 22:01:01> @U0FN1B8KD: Hi everyone here is our document for preparing the application for funding for the clinical trial on liver, dont hesitate read and give feedback. It is pretty well advanced now. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q3RpUObJeviJijokr_lNJZUEGIUMBDqs_SbTvd8hSSQ/edit I was also wondering if for the data analysis we should merge with the data team <@U0B47KC3S> <@U2PFHNN3C> <@U37GZRZU6>
2017-02-01 22:10:17> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U0FN1B8KD>, I am going to check and dump my part
2017-02-01 22:52:50> @U37GZRZU6: Sure <@U0FN1B8KD> ! What can we do to help ? Do you want us to add some more details/references about the automated diagnosis / organ recognition ? Just tell us :wink:
2017-02-01 22:53:49> @U37GZRZU6: (when is the application deadline?)
2017-02-01 23:00:58> @U0FN1B8KD: That could be great ! Not on the abstract but on the detailed version, and especially in the "methods " part. But when do you think the organ recognition would be ready ? I was thinking on the data analysis of the cohort , but if it is ready could be even better !!!
2017-02-01 23:14:20> @U37GZRZU6: Well for the organ recognition it depends on lots of factors... First we need a big amount of images to train the models, and also we need to test the performances on the echOpen data... <@U2PFHNN3C> do you have something to say about that? How's the request for data from the AP-HP going?
2017-02-01 23:26:32> @U37GZRZU6: For the data analysis I'm not (yet?) an expert at all in medical trials, I can try to enrich that part but I really don't think I'm the best person to handle it...?
2017-02-01 23:49:29> @U37GZRZU6: It depends what amount of details you need :wink:
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2017-03-16 15:21:24> @U0B47KC3S: hi there ! I am reviewing the whole doc of Mecovir and I have some questions about this paragraph
2017-03-16 15:21:25> @U0B47KC3S: “Our primary outcome will be to assess the accuracy of echOpen used by non-radiologist health professional, for identification of cirrhosis criterias in chronic viral hepatitis patients clinically diagnosed with cirrhosis. We will assess sensitivity and specificity for 6 major criterias: liver size and shape, nodular liver surface, round edge, hypoechoic nodules in liver parenchyma, portal hypertension signs and ascite. We will use standard ultrasonography as a reference standard."
2017-03-16 15:22:45> @U0B47KC3S: what do you have in mind with measuring sensitivity and specificity for some of these criteria such as nodular liver surface ?
2017-03-16 15:23:54> @U0B47KC3S: btw, sensitivity and specificity against what ?
2017-03-16 15:25:39> @U0B47KC3S: cc <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U3CDR25JP> <@U3N1SENJY> <@U3T7KBEMV>
2017-03-16 15:52:28> @U3CDR25JP: Assess the detection by echopen of a nodular liver surface (presence or absence) with sonography as reference. For example if for 100 positive sign(nodular liver surface) detected with sonography echopen detect 90 we would say echopen has 90% sensitivity
2017-03-16 15:59:15> @U3CDR25JP: The idea was to assess how useful can be echopen in the diagnoses of cirrhosis which is a more prevalent and important health problem than hcc. So I think it is a good start for echopen. These criterias are some of the most important for sonography of cirrhosis. But the final choices of which should be choosen for the study depends on the final quality of echopen and should be ask to one of our radiologist I guess
2017-03-16 15:59:53> @U3CDR25JP: (final choices of criterias)
2017-03-16 17:50:20> @U0B47KC3S: <@U3CDR25JP> ok you test against a regular sonography. but then, what do you mean by measuring sensitivity for the size ? btw, it is not a major issue, but we should distinguish outcome and judgment criteria
2017-03-16 18:07:22> @U3CDR25JP: <@U0B47KC3S> haven't really thought about it, my guess would be to define two/three categories, normal and large size, so you can say echopen has 90% sensitivity for detecting large size liver, but I don't know if it is clinically relevant, another way would be to have a error measure of the size.. but there is probably a large amount of variability between sonography... it would make the comparison diffucult, and is it clinically relevant to know that echopen measures liver with a 0.1 or .01 precision I don't know, maybe it is just simpler to say echopen detects big liver, it is a good sign for cirrhosis and thats all
2017-03-19 16:54:39> @U0FN1B8KD: What i learnt this week in my medecine courses is that echography is THE gold standard to study biles conducts
2017-03-19 16:54:57> @U0FN1B8KD: I dont know if it helps
2017-03-19 17:28:57> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0FN1B8KD> sure ! but it still not validated for echo-stéthoscopie #murphysign
2017-03-19 18:27:35> @U3CDR25JP: Are you sure your are not confounding with endo echoscopie? For bile conducts the performance of bili MRI and endo echoscopie is a lot better than echoscopy
2017-03-19 19:12:50> @U0FN1B8KD: ahha maybe, i'll check
2017-03-27 12:51:25> @U3GQS8JTZ: <@U3GQS8JTZ> has left the channel
2017-03-30 12:10:56> @U0B47KC3S: [:mega:] call 4 echOpen’s public health nation :wink:
2017-03-30 12:11:01> @U0B47KC3S: we had a meeting with Roche foundation which is very interested in our project, mainly the usage of echo-stethoscopic devices in french underserved areas
2017-03-30 12:11:10> @U0B47KC3S: they are now requiring some document study about the echO-stethoscopy
2017-03-30 12:11:14> @U0B47KC3S: 3 main problematics :
2017-03-30 12:11:17> @U0B47KC3S: 1) medical interest
2017-03-30 12:11:20> @U0B47KC3S: 2) state if the art of usage and use cases
2017-03-30 12:11:22> @U0B47KC3S: 3) perspectives of spreading
2017-03-30 12:11:50> @U0B47KC3S: are there volunteers ? ! :nerd_face:
2017-03-30 12:13:12> @U0AAL4W13: Ping <@U2MF267L2>
2017-03-30 12:17:34> @U0AAL4W13: And see for example : https://echopen.slack.com/archives/C0KSNKYHW/p1457174280000002
2017-03-30 12:20:01> @U0AAL4W13: Depending on the length / content expected, a summary of this article could be a good base :)
2017-03-30 12:20:29> @U0B47KC3S: excellent <@U0AAL4W13> - <@U0FN1B8KD> it is an excellent way to introduce to systematic reviews, that any medical doctor should be aware of :wink: cc <@U3CDR25JP> <@U3N1SENJY>
2017-03-30 12:28:11> @U0AAL4W13: Similarly, see the Atlas of handheld devices usages: https://echopen.slack.com/archives/C0KSNKYHW/p1456078575150174 (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-03-30 12:30:31> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0B47KC3S> do you have any length for this paper?
2017-03-30 12:30:46> @U0AAL4W13: Language constraints?
2017-03-30 12:31:04> @U0B47KC3S: nothing prescribed :wink:
2017-03-30 12:31:28> @U0AAL4W13: Hum and for storing, where should this document be put? Répo?
2017-03-30 12:32:25> @U0B47KC3S: sure for the repo - besides, I think it will be important for Pierre to tell us how far and in which way the usage is spreading in APHP
2017-03-30 12:33:48> @U0AAL4W13: Oh if you get a hold of Pierre, I'd be curious to have his opinion on the wireless probe.
2017-03-30 12:37:49> @U0B47KC3S: ok I will catch him
2017-03-30 18:56:09> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U3T7KBEMV> that could interest you ?
2017-03-30 21:51:07> @U3T7KBEMV: <@U0FN1B8KD> yes tkt ! I finish my exams and I will take a look on this (monday probably) :slightly_smiling_face:
2017-04-02 09:51:32> @U0FN1B8KD: ok I also have exams this week :wink:
2017-04-02 11:40:03> @U3GHS132Q: Good luck for your exams :slightly_smiling_face: (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD,@U3T7KBEMV)
2017-04-02 20:18:43> @U0B47KC3S: Yes have fun :wink: (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD,@U3T7KBEMV)
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2017-04-19 12:37:13> @U0B47KC3S: Hello to all, we have to produce for the end of next week’s last deadline the document for the foundation Roche <@U3T7KBEMV> <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U3CDR25JP> <@U3N1SENJY> others, are you available for a sprint ?!
2017-04-19 21:45:14> @U3T7KBEMV: Hi ! I began to select pubmed articles to check the 3 problematics, so i will read them as faster as possible to synthetise them. I hope i will finish that before saturday.. (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-04-21 10:52:29> @U3T7KBEMV: <@U3T7KBEMV> and commented: Hi! I made a little document about the medical interest, state of usage and potential spreading. It largely base on the littérature review of Becker, but I completed it with my own researchs. I hope it could be useful although it's not an ending document... I stay available for any questions of course !
2017-04-21 10:54:01> @U0AAL4W13: Superb!
2017-04-21 10:59:34> @U0AAL4W13: Becker work on lmic is fantastic
2017-04-21 11:28:10> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U3T7KBEMV> ! We should arrange a skype on monday meeting to fix some sprint to converge to the document in the right delay. <@U3T7KBEMV> <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U3CDR25JP> <@U3N1SENJY> are you in ?
2017-04-21 11:45:40> @U3T7KBEMV: I'm in, but after 7pm (no skype at work..)
2017-04-21 12:10:08> @U3CDR25JP: hey i'll try help, ok for monday skype, <@U3T7KBEMV> and <@U2MF267L2> would you share some articles/review about stethoechoscopy,
2017-04-21 12:10:09> @U3CDR25JP: ?
2017-04-21 12:11:08> @U3CDR25JP: oh sorry there is everything in the doc
2017-04-21 12:11:16> @U3CDR25JP: I see..
2017-04-21 12:15:55> @U3CDR25JP: <@U0B47KC3S> do you have detailed information about what the document should look like? format, size (length), how much medical/non medical...or maybe an example of a similar work to get inspiration?
2017-04-21 12:38:56> @U0B47KC3S: nice having you in <@U3CDR25JP> - I don’t have any such inspiring example but fondation Roche is looking for some document that attests the interest of echo-stethoscopy. We don’t have to go deep in medical details, but we have to give an overview of the (current and intended uses) usage and expected impact. So main items will be : interest of the techonology, current medical coverage, medical usage scheduled, medical needs (south and north), professions targeted, expected impact.
2017-04-21 12:40:36> @U3CDR25JP: ok thanks !
2017-04-22 14:22:20> @U0FN1B8KD: Hi everyone ! I'll try to help ! at what time is the skype monday? <@U0B47KC3S> could you give us sami's mail or contact him? (it seems like he is not answering on slack), also do you think <@U3Q46QRHU> could be interested in helping us?
2017-04-24 18:59:00> @U0B47KC3S: oups sorry <@U0FN1B8KD>, I had some notifications issue since I am just discovering your message... btw are you there ? <@U3T7KBEMV> ivan.l ?
2017-04-24 19:23:26> @U3T7KBEMV: yes ! I'm here <@U0B47KC3S>
2017-04-24 22:06:55> @U0FN1B8KD: sorry I was in the train ! can you give a feedback?
2017-04-25 14:35:39> @U0FN1B8KD: we will have a meeting wednesday at 5pm for those who want to join remotely or at HD
2017-04-25 14:35:58> @U0FN1B8KD: ping <@U3T7KBEMV> and <@U0B47KC3S>
2017-04-26 02:18:12> @U0B47KC3S: Hi <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U3T7KBEMV> @ ivan.l here is the doc that Sami has just sent us. His work of review is not finished but he has laid down on the paper some elements of synthesis which will feed our conversation tomorrow :wink: (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2017-04-26 02:18:25> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S>
2017-04-26 09:40:13> @U0FN1B8KD: Should the paper for Roche be in french or english?
2017-04-26 10:35:56> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0FN1B8KD> french is OK
2017-04-26 17:09:24> @Hyacinthe: <@U0FN1B8KD>: GREAT !:D
2017-04-26 17:58:36> @U0FN1B8KD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GOPfu91g4AG9QSKEKXoJd4JmZWLB6M4NtTwfT9k_dX4/edit
2017-04-26 17:59:58> @U0FN1B8KD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yv0qfre6ISShIcxGTSjlsSedE1qg6ujGkkJkCzjhBNA/edit
2017-04-26 18:15:48> @U0FN1B8KD: https://www.mindmeister.com/fr/715079083?t=5K4akU2L74
2017-04-26 18:16:10> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U3T7KBEMV> see here ! :wink:
2017-04-26 18:30:53> @U3T7KBEMV: oo !! magnifique !! en annexe ça pourrait être pas mal (a voir si le doc reste lisible)
2017-04-26 18:44:20> @U0FN1B8KD: Draft for Roche fondation : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1puRGYKv-DuSVPqj6-6wRaOss4wHQk6ykVpiuK5t73f4/edit
2017-04-26 19:33:10> @U0FN1B8KD: http://aromates.fr/public/Synthese%20TNS%202017.pdf : 8eme assise des technologies numérique de santé
2017-04-26 20:01:37> @U0FN1B8KD: Here is the draft for the roche fondation ! feel free to comment/modify https://docs.google.com/document/d/1puRGYKv-DuSVPqj6-6wRaOss4wHQk6ykVpiuK5t73f4/edit
2017-04-27 01:36:26> @U0B47KC3S: thank you <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U3T7KBEMV> <@U2MF267L2> :wink: we ‘re going to review the work !
2017-04-27 07:17:26> @U3T7KBEMV: Ok <@U0FN1B8KD> I review it this morning :wink:
2017-04-27 09:29:44> @U3T7KBEMV: Here is my contribution on the draft (sorry, I's a new document but it was easier) : https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2Pbm3tuoxlyek5lLUNzVGRuZDA
2017-04-27 09:31:04> @U3T7KBEMV: <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U0B47KC3S> <@U2MF267L2> (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-04-27 09:42:39> @U0FN1B8KD: Thank you ! :smile:
2017-04-27 14:13:41> @U04DFTZ7D: Interesting article that might help: Turning a blind eye: the mobilization of radiology services in resource-poor regions | Globalization and Health | Full Text https://globalizationandhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-8603-6-18
2017-04-27 14:18:30> @U04DFTZ7D: Especially table 2 and the part about ultrasound diagnosis ;) cc <@U0B47KC3S> <@U0FN1B8KD> <@U2MF267L2> <@U3T7KBEMV> (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2017-05-01 15:05:35> @U0FN1B8KD: I added some small modifications :https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rooL_GVNISKFVUcgBPNsl50tUfOXIg1GYpGhgfrzjik/edit <@U0B47KC3S> <@U3T7KBEMV> <@U04DFTZ7D>
2017-05-01 15:14:11> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U0FN1B8KD> :wink:
2017-05-01 15:16:58> @U0FN1B8KD: benchoufi: I hope it will do, I am not completely satisfied
2017-05-01 15:20:30> @U0FN1B8KD: olivier: cited :wink:
2017-05-01 15:21:35> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U0AAL4W13> : what should we cite to justify that open hardware lower the market price?
2017-05-01 15:22:28> @U0AAL4W13: Any research found already?
2017-05-01 15:26:41> @U0AAL4W13: That seems a far shot, but you seem to imply that open source is cheaper and plays on the same market - which may not be the case. Ultimately, on the side of costs, yes, if you consider that the r&d costs and pi costs are zero.
2017-05-01 15:26:41> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:28:01> @U0FN1B8KD: "Son développement collaboratif et communautaire et son caractère open-source permettent une réduction considérable des coûts en garantissant qualité, efficacité, flexibilité et coopération entre professionnels de santé, patients, et concepteurs-techniciens."
2017-05-01 15:28:13> @U0FN1B8KD: I wrote that , is it false <@U0AAL4W13> ?
2017-05-01 15:30:49> @U0AAL4W13: You can also consider that opening a design lowers some barriers to entry on the market, and increases the competition. However, some key players may have secured the upstream vertical (piezo suppliers, key elements under nda, certification costs, knowledge,... ) which may prevent other competitors to enter the market -- while downstream (marketing, services, customer services, maintenance,...) are also important elements to factor in. You can't compete with the lumify if you don't have their level of services - unless you create a new niche.
2017-05-01 15:30:49> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:32:00> @U0AAL4W13: I don't see the link between open source lowering costs this way :) maybe to detail?
2017-05-01 15:34:04> @U0AAL4W13: A good read though: http://openhardware.metajnl.com/articles/10.5334/joh.4/ with excellent references
2017-05-01 15:34:58> @U0FN1B8KD: haha, I have been thinking that for a year
2017-05-01 15:36:02> @U0FN1B8KD: S do you think I should remove this idea?
2017-05-01 15:37:46> @U0AAL4W13: The idea is that opening a design lowers a barrier (opening pcbs lowers r&d) which means that it is a cost less. However, too many barriers remain to introduce a perfect competition, so it may or may not be lowering the price. Say I want to make a probe, I still need to find suppliers (some are locked!) to find a factory, to be certified, to find distribution channels,...
2017-05-01 15:37:46> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:37:54> @U0AAL4W13: Your call :)
2017-05-01 15:38:59> @U0AAL4W13: For the repair part - there's already a market of probe repair companies existing, on which competition exists. So even on repair, the services would be easier, not necessarily hugely cheaper.
2017-05-01 15:38:59> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:39:14> @U0AAL4W13: (ping <@U38HVMZ6K> for your opinion ?)
2017-05-01 15:40:37> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U38HVMZ6K> has joined the channel
2017-05-01 15:41:48> @U0FN1B8KD: But I thought one major point of echopen was to reduce the cost via the collaborative and open source way, i am confused
2017-05-01 15:42:33> @U0FN1B8KD: <@U0B47KC3S> can you help us?
2017-05-01 15:42:41> @U0FN1B8KD: or <@U04DFTZ7D> ?
2017-05-01 15:43:08> @U0AAL4W13: The point lies in lowering the costs and having a lower margin than the competition, in this you can be cheaper :)
2017-05-01 15:43:08> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:46:22> @U0AAL4W13: But you still need to sell at a higher price than what it costs you. And breaking down the costs, you'll still have some costs left. Basically you can remove some employees costs (salaries) by having only contributions, r&d costs, using alternates designs and alternates sources for materials - but you still something that remains - which may or may not be a huge difference compared to the original cost structure.
2017-05-01 15:50:57> @U0AAL4W13: Really excited to see to what proportion the impact of opening this technology can have on the final device :) (reactions: @U0FN1B8KD)
2017-05-01 15:50:58> @U0AAL4W13:
2017-05-01 15:57:51> @U0AAL4W13: "I'd change reduction considerable des coûts into réduction des coûts" which is less committing :)
2017-05-01 16:00:04> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0FN1B8KD> I don’t think we may go into erudition details, moreover the thoughts related to buiseness model are to my knowledge not still mature on our side - for those interested here’s where it is led <#C52LMHXQW>. The idea is to give an overview. Some simple principle can be asserted 1) open source in software (not by itself, cf. ubuntu but when supported by a community) lowers the costs 2) the R&D part is distributed through the community, which lowers the cost. Btw, our approach will be to “softwarize” as much as we can. 3) On a more medical side, the idea to go to “orientation” diagnosis tool, which do not implies the same level of quality than eventual competitor, we are not on the same market than other ultrasound portable device 4) At last, an other aspect which enables lowering the cost and which is a huge source of expenses, are marketting and communication, we can hope that this will be considerably held by the community

C2MAANG0P

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