2016-11-28 09:31:58> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S> has joined the channel
2016-11-28 09:33:13> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S> set the channel topic: dedicated to patients issues : co-construction, patients/doctors/connected app interactions, ethics &such
2016-11-28 09:33:49> @U33817K25: <@U33817K25> has joined the channel
2016-11-28 12:42:14> @U0B47KC3S: hi <@U33817K25> I have just created this channel, this is where our patients related discussion will take place !
2016-11-29 00:25:12> @U33817K25: hi <@U0B47KC3S> I've just shared the framing document of the patient stream here : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TGfV86ApHdfFWCMrzMj1Vy-pkc38DmwIC1qw7KfhLi8
2016-11-29 00:30:07> @U33817K25: this document is meant ot be discussed and further developed, so please help yourself !! :grinning:
2016-11-29 00:31:03> @U33817K25: maybe it is better if I import the document here (sorry, discovering slack...) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TGfV86ApHdfFWCMrzMj1Vy-pkc38DmwIC1qw7KfhLi8
2016-11-29 00:31:52> @U33817K25: <@U33817K25>
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2016-11-29 09:35:53> @U0B47KC3S: thanks <@U33817K25>. Anyone interested can contribute to this gDoc !
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2016-11-29 10:14:49> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U04DFTZ7D> has renamed the channel from "prj_medtec_patients" to "prj_publichealth_pati"
2016-11-29 11:47:03> @U38HVMZ6K: #prj_medtec_patients was a bit clearer than <#C388S911V>, no ? having the full word "patients" in the name is self-explanatory and intuitive :wink:
2016-11-29 11:52:13> @U33817K25: I concur :slightly_smiling_face:
2016-11-29 11:52:35> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U38HVMZ6K>: thanks for your reply, but medtec is defined by all technical aspects of the project including the medical link with the technical aspects. Then, we cannot crop the mid word as the information system developed to automate the content will not be able to integrate it. And the channel name is constraint by a number of signs. If you have any suggestion?
2016-11-29 11:53:49> @U04DFTZ7D: We could have something wider and rename patient by user, as the definition of the project include both patients and doctors ?
2016-11-29 11:54:18> @U04DFTZ7D: Or simply "use"
2016-11-29 11:55:31> @U33817K25: I propose that we stick to patient for the time being .
2016-11-29 11:57:28> @U33817K25: Maybe it is too narrow but it really emphasizes the fact that we want to reintegrate the other subject in the examination
2016-11-29 11:57:52> @U33817K25: Or of the examination
2016-11-29 11:57:52> @U04DFTZ7D: I agree ! Thanks
2016-11-29 11:58:17> @U04DFTZ7D: So how could we rename the channel considering the constrains according to you ?
2016-11-29 11:59:10> @U33817K25: #prj_patient ?
2016-11-29 11:59:54> @U38HVMZ6K: >Then, we cannot crop the mid word as the information system developed to automate the content will not be able to integrate it.
2016-11-29 12:00:24> @U38HVMZ6K: don't undersatnad the limitation here... which content is generated where ? (sorry newbie question...)
2016-11-29 12:01:41> @U04DFTZ7D: We developed an automatic web site generator to publish content from github repository. You can see in http://echOpen.org / documentation an example of what we are currently generalizing with all sub-project in echOpen.
2016-11-29 12:02:00> @U38HVMZ6K: publichealth will always limit the length of the "interesting part" to 4 characters --> pubhlth or just health ?
2016-11-29 12:02:07> @U38HVMZ6K: OK thx I'll have a look
2016-11-29 12:02:18> @U04DFTZ7D: It's a good question, we also developing the information about this. It's still on going and will be release in a few weeks
2016-11-29 12:03:15> @U33817K25: Why not #prj_patient (for the time being)?
2016-11-29 12:03:19> @U04DFTZ7D: At the end, all echOpen content on each project/ thread will be stored in a GitHub repository and automatically publicly released on the website
2016-11-29 12:05:01> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U33817K25>: it's going to be the same issue as the system already include 9 topics (liste available here http://www.echopen.org/join_us) and we developed the system including each project in a specific topic.
2016-11-29 12:05:09> @U33817K25: I think patient exceeds public health and public health limits patient issues
2016-11-29 12:05:39> @U04DFTZ7D: We can define a new topic
2016-11-29 12:07:19> @U33817K25: Patient connects with ethical issues as well
2016-11-29 12:08:31> @U04DFTZ7D: We have a topic dedicated to ethic. We probably could rename it and including ethic inside. Shouldn't we include patient and healthcare pro in it ? To have a wider topic ?
2016-11-29 12:08:40> @U0B47KC3S: :+1: defining new topic;)
2016-11-29 12:26:40> @U04DFTZ7D: Ok, so we have several options : 1. Changing publichealth by pubhlth and setting up PRJ_pubhlth_patient 2. We rename ethic by something wider including patient, user and ethic and we include “patient" inside 3. We keep it as it is and we create a new topic that will have no overlap with public health, neither ethic. What should we do according to you ? Thanks for your answers… cc <@U0B47KC3S> <@U38HVMZ6K> <@U33817K25>
2016-11-29 12:30:29> @U33817K25: Why not 3 and we decide later whether connections with public health and ethics mean inclusion in one sense or another ?
2016-11-29 12:36:54> @U04DFTZ7D: Thank you <@U33817K25> but changing the topics will be an important work as we need to update the website, the wiki, the repositories, change the code inside the system, update the gitbooks, etc. So if we can find a solution that will not be changing in the next weeks, it would be great :wink:
2016-11-29 12:41:42> @U33817K25: Maybe we can preempt ethics for the time being ?
2016-11-29 12:42:44> @U04DFTZ7D: Great that's the easiest way for the moment ;) and we change later if we need it !
2016-11-29 12:43:02> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U04DFTZ7D> set the channel topic: dedicated to patients issues : co-construction, patients/doctors/connected app interactions, ethics &such
2016-11-29 12:43:02> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U04DFTZ7D> has renamed the channel from "prj_publichealth_pati" to "prj_ethic_patient"
2016-11-29 12:43:37> @U04DFTZ7D: It's done here and I'll change the repository in the github to get the content in the future.
2016-11-29 12:49:41> @U33817K25: Alright, Thx
2016-11-29 13:13:41> @U38HVMZ6K: :+1::skin-tone-2: great I didn't want to cause so much trouble with a simple question/remark :sweat_smile:
2016-11-29 13:15:31> @U38HVMZ6K: but in the process I learnt about the automated publishing tool! (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2016-11-29 13:27:54> @U04DFTZ7D: Of course not <@U38HVMZ6K> ;) it's extremely valuable to have your remark !! It helps all of us to improve... and to provide clearer information to the community ! Thanks
2016-11-29 14:31:54> @U33817K25: <@U38HVMZ6K> <@U04DFTZ7D> discussing names is always important, especially when we can converge towards a common (transient) solution that fast :+1:
2016-11-29 14:32:55> @U04DFTZ7D: Sure !!
2016-11-29 14:37:29> @U33817K25: just to let you now, I partly attended the symposium "les chercheurs et l'action" at MSH Paris Nord this morning and briefly discussed echOpen/patients with Bernard Stiegler and Marc Lipinski who showed interest and possibly meetings to come and more connections... keep you updated
2016-11-29 14:39:34> @U33817K25: btw I realized I needed to hone my PR skills a bit...
2016-11-29 14:40:31> @U04DFTZ7D: Great, that is a good news :wink:
2016-11-29 14:41:41> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U33817K25> technical and PR skills are not so often merged in a single person :slightly_smiling_face:
2016-11-29 14:42:30> @U33817K25: <@U38HVMZ6K> I hoped you wouldn't say that... I have no technical skills either :smile:
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2016-12-05 10:40:46> @U0B47KC3S: hi <@U33817K25> , I had a dinner yesterday with yann algan, who is the dean of the school of public affairs at Sciences Po
2016-12-05 10:40:51> @U0B47KC3S: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yann_Algan
2016-12-05 10:41:05> @U0B47KC3S: he runs many projects on many subjects implying ScPo students and developers of epita/epitech/42
2016-12-05 10:41:10> @U0B47KC3S: He is not really satisfied by his health projects but he is interested by echOpen, especillay by the patients track
2016-12-05 10:41:12> @U0B47KC3S: We should meet this month, I ll tell you when we schedule that
2016-12-05 10:47:28> @U33817K25: Sounds just great!
2016-12-05 20:02:30> @U33817K25: i had no time to be more demonstrative this morning but this is great news, especially when you consider the kind of subjects this guy is knowledgeable about !!
2016-12-05 20:42:59> @U0B47KC3S: yes indeed, he wants students to be more aware of the paradigm shift for health. He do not want to train and form bureaucrats. He is looking for a tech project that could embrasse several subjects, such as ethics, economical impacts, doctor-patients relationships, remote medecine. echOpen sounds to be a good fit :wink:
2016-12-05 22:36:15> @U33817K25: Absolutely :slightly_smiling_face:
2016-12-05 22:55:01> @U33817K25: just for the heads up : Lionel Dagot of LAPPS (Laboratoire Parisien de Psychologie Sociale) is interested and I also had a feedback from Bernard Stiegler, we are currently trying to settle a date for a meeting (reactions: @U04DFTZ7D)
2016-12-05 23:30:44> @U33817K25: Marc Lipinski also told me the Mission Associations at INSERM could be of some help in targeting patient associations (their mission is to connect patient associations with research labs at INSERM). Do you happen to know of them ? <@U0B47KC3S>
2016-12-05 23:35:01> @U0B47KC3S: unfortunately not, but maybe we should could contact them !
2016-12-05 23:35:24> @U33817K25: will do, anyways
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2016-12-08 01:05:34> @U33817K25: When even McKinsey says it: "Companies that do attempt to match product features and capabilities more closely to their customers’ perceptions of value must answer a difficult question: Who are their customers? Fragmented decision-making in many healthcare markets makes it extremely difficult for companies to understand the requirements of all key stakeholders. To be selected for use, a device might have to be approved by a national or regional authority, selected by a healthcare provider, specified by a particular clinical team, and then chosen by doctors, often in consultation with patients. Finally, it may be the patient’s own reactions to the device that define its success in use"
2016-12-08 01:07:32> @U33817K25: <@U33817K25>
2016-12-08 09:14:36> @U04DFTZ7D: Thanks <@U33817K25> it’s very interesting and proves that we are on the right way :wink:
2016-12-08 10:01:03> @U0B47KC3S: indeed <@U33817K25> #interesting. I retain the idea that we should think and try "conjoint analyses” and“teardown analysis”
2016-12-08 10:15:02> @U0B47KC3S: hi brunocp I reached this morning Yann Algan the head of the public affaires school of ScPo. He just answered for a meeting :wink: So you have mail on your inbox @echopen.org
2016-12-08 10:15:09> @U0B47KC3S: for the record, Yann’s students use to work on tech projects and they have to build up a technology all along with raising and tackling institutional problematics. But, on the health side, he is looking for a broad and transversal project. echOpen seems to fit :wink:
2016-12-08 11:08:26> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U33817K25> thanks for sharing! very interesting analysis. Will read it more in details later but already shared with UX, Human Factors engineers on my side
2016-12-08 11:12:58> @U04DFTZ7D: Great, thanks <@U38HVMZ6K> let us know their feedbacks ;)
2016-12-08 11:26:25> @U38HVMZ6K: Already almost "hired" one of them on echOpen :stuck_out_tongue: (reactions: @U0AAL4W13,@U04DFTZ7D,@U0B47KC3S)
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2016-12-09 00:11:28> @U33817K25: <@U0B47KC3S> it seems conjoint analyses are not that easy to set up, and teardown analysis might be costly (you need to buy competitor equipment). Maybe clean sheet analysis is the first thing we need to tackle. From what I know most of the knowledge, elements and competences for such a task are already existing within echOpen, and I guess part of the analysis has already been carreid out, but to what extent I don't know.
2016-12-09 00:16:09> @U33817K25: <@U0B47KC3S> I'm really excited about the meeting with science po. I guess we should talk about it how we want to prepare for it.
2016-12-09 00:27:44> @U33817K25: btw the "chaire de statistiques avancées" at CNAM seems to be knowledgeable about conjoint analysis... maybe we could talk to them
2016-12-09 00:38:05> @U0B47KC3S: <@U33817K25> I’ll tell you as soon as we’ll have meeting date proposals
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2017-01-09 23:11:37> @U33817K25: !!!!NEW!!!! A graph with a lot of information concerning the mediations that take place when we introduce a device in the doctor-patient relationship
2017-01-09 23:13:33> @U33817K25: <@U33817K25> and commented: Mediations that take place when a device is introduced in the doctor patient relationship - wip
2017-01-09 23:19:17> @U33817K25: Basically what I show here are the different relationships between the participants, the object of the actions and how they are affected by the interaction with the instrument (the echostethoscope)
2017-01-09 23:25:20> @U33817K25: I draw on social psychology, ethics, ergonomics, medical, educational and anthropology theories
2017-01-09 23:33:08> @U33817K25: What strikes me is the fact that introducing the echostethoscope in the medical examination changes not only the procedures but the nature of the situation itself
2017-01-09 23:33:25> @U0B47KC3S: #ouaou this is transversal !! Indeed, the impact of the intrusion of connected devices in between docs and patients are nearly considered, either in practice, nor in the realm of publications. I can tell you this from the inside :wink:
2017-01-09 23:33:26> @U0B47KC3S: It is so fun seeing how those techy high-grade scientific devices bring to life humanities and social sciences. Thanks <@U33817K25>
2017-01-09 23:34:09> @U33817K25: indeed <@U0B47KC3S> !!
2017-01-09 23:39:41> @U33817K25: This comes from the duality of the instrument, which is both an artifact (in essence already multidimensional, since it comes with a form - sw and hw - but also with a new epistemology) and a series of schemes (the ways we use the instrument but also the abstract procedures for which we designed the artifact in the first place).
2017-01-09 23:40:57> @U33817K25: Someone used to say that an artifact helps solving old problems, but poses in turn new ones (I think Rabardel, for the records)
2017-01-09 23:44:06> @U0AAL4W13: "Les hommes et les technologies" ? :wink: (reactions: @U33817K25)
2017-01-09 23:48:09> @U33817K25: in the case of echostethoscopy, the artifact comes with new capabilities (it is portable, the image can be shared, it can be used in a wider array of situations, etc.) and also a new semiology, which in this case means a new way of communicating (semiotics) and also a new somatic semiology, and that changes a lot
2017-01-09 23:48:41> @U33817K25: <@U0AAL4W13> exactly :wink:
2017-01-09 23:48:45> @U0B47KC3S: interesting, btw there is a point about these devices, they have friends to whom they are connected, so they constitute a whole network, kinda of distributed medical analysis labs. Moreover, the spectrum of IA gives them an autonomy capability, this is quite deep, so that patients or docs can be considered as in-between connected devices, who expose human readable archaic APIs :wink:
2017-01-09 23:54:14> @U33817K25: <@U0B47KC3S> yes that's where I believe the network must have rules akin to the three laws of robotics, since the old "human APIs" are complex and can cause a wide range of consequences to their "host system"
2017-01-09 23:57:23> @U33817K25: your point is truly interesting in that it adds a whole stack of new perspectives to what we should mean by "patient centric" or "human centric"
2017-01-10 00:29:50> @U33817K25: mind me, but when looking at this graph, I find there is a definitely object-oriented touch to it
2017-01-10 00:42:26> @U0B47KC3S: funny :wink: <@U33817K25> a kinda philobject-oriented developer (reactions: @U33817K25)
2017-01-10 00:45:33> @U33817K25: class: triangle, method: mediation (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-01-10 08:51:08> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U33817K25> very interesting analysis and schema! great job, it's always good to have us, techies/geeks, thinking about such usability/social psychology in our developments. Thanks for sharing and bringing in this expertise and views (reactions: @U33817K25)
2017-01-10 09:12:28> @U33817K25: <@U38HVMZ6K> man=geek this is what we have to come to terms with nowadays and finally after 3 million years of evolution :wink: (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-01-10 09:13:53> @U33817K25: Therefore there is no such thing as a closure between technology and humanities
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2017-01-17 00:27:15> @U33817K25: I was musing that with echOpen we could help de-institutionalize chronic disease like PSR (psychosocial rehabilitation) has been doing with mental health since the 80's, and that doesn't happen without the patients (that are not merely called patient anymore but users or even clients). This is hardly a matter of making patient lives more comfortable or humane (though it is also), this is a matter of reducing mortality. As soon as I have more on this subject, I will post it here.
2017-01-17 00:33:50> @U0B47KC3S: I feel I get the idea but I am not sure, could you explain what you mean by “de-institutionalize chronic disease"
2017-01-17 00:39:46> @U33817K25: de-institutionalization in mental-health was the idea of getting the patients out of the mental hospitals and back in society, close to their parents and other supporting structures. This is what we call "psychiatrie de secteur" in France. But it doesn't work in terms of reducing mortality (in mental health) until you really switch from a purely medical paradigm to a notion of emporwerment, so that the disease is not the issue, but the ways in which persons impaired with a mental illness can recover the closest thing to a "normal" life as possible
2017-01-17 00:49:33> @U33817K25: chronic disease is still very much shaped by the hospital and I think that applying the same reasoning as with mental health we can improve the situation. Echostethoscopy on a large scale is a tool of choice to achieve that
2017-01-17 00:51:30> @U33817K25: therefore echOpen can help
2017-01-17 00:52:34> @U0B47KC3S: I get your point. and I totally agree. More broadly, I thinks connected objects, and not necessarily health ones, are getting around medical institutions and with IA powered ones, I think de-institutionalization will be a unavoidable path
2017-01-17 00:56:47> @U33817K25: yes, if the these connected objects don't disconnect the users from their ability to decide, i.e IAs don't make decision on behalf of users as doctors might do (even with the best intentions) (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-01-17 01:01:27> @U33817K25: but we still love y'all, the MDs :slightly_smiling_face:
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2017-02-06 20:20:14> @U0AAL4W13: <@U33817K25> -- ca pourrait t'interesser: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/ultrasound-woman-pregnancy/514109/?single_page=true
2017-02-06 20:22:07> @U0AAL4W13: Trump, ultrasound, politics and ethics :smiley:
2017-02-06 21:57:03> @U33817K25: Very interesting actually! A load of info, and a real life experiment on how medical images can be manipulated and instrumentalized. Ethics do not only lie in medical practice, but more widely and dangerously in the power relationships that vested interests introduce in public debate.
2017-02-06 21:58:18> @U33817K25: Thx <@U0AAL4W13> :wink: (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
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