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2016-10-10 09:18:08> @U04DFTZ7D: <@U04DFTZ7D> set the channel purpose: echOpen medical to be discussed here.
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2016-10-12 12:17:03> @U04DFTZ7D: <!channel> >, doctor at Saint-Louis is currently working on a meta analysis based on the literature… Any ideas, remarks or insight => share here !
2016-11-07 19:25:55> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0B47KC3S> set the channel topic: dedicated to all medical related issue : medical usages, probe ergonomy, clinical trials & such
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2016-11-13 18:53:25> @U04DFTZ7D: For further discussions about medical matters, i invite you to use the channel <#C2M9WACDB>
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2016-12-12 13:03:32> @U2MF267L2: Hi there ! Next meeting to discuss about meta analyse is scheduled this friday 16 at 19:00 , pierre bourrier will be there, hope to see you (reactions: @U04DFTZ7D,@U33817K25,@U0FN1B8KD)
2016-12-12 13:17:59> @U0B47KC3S: great <@U2MF267L2> !!
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2017-02-01 22:25:31> @U0FN1B8KD: Hi the medical channel, this public health topic is also medical : it is about application for a grant in order to conduct clinical trial --> do not hesitate to check !
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2017-02-03 16:36:45> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0AAL4W13>
2017-02-03 16:48:57> @U0B47KC3S: your micro twin brother hiding in your belly ?
2017-02-03 16:53:29> @U0AAL4W13: quite, but again?
2017-02-03 16:55:01> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0AAL4W13>
2017-02-03 16:56:14> @U0AAL4W13: not my belly mind you, but a man aged 40 , in his belly
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2017-02-22 20:49:00> @U0AAL4W13: Cadeau : https://www.coursera.org/learn/pharma-medical-device-innovations -> I'll be auditing the course, any one wants to join? (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-02-22 21:20:39> @U38HVMZ6K: I also registered! Thanks for sharing. I will probably only attend the parts on the medical devices. I'm a bit less interested in pharmaceuticals :wink:
2017-02-22 21:52:48> @U0AAL4W13: same here
2017-02-22 21:54:18> @U0AAL4W13: the full specialization is very interesting, from concept to sales :) it includes a market analysis part as well, how to integrate norms , ... too bad I don't have enough time :)
2017-02-22 21:54:56> @U38HVMZ6K: same here :disappointed: :disappointed: :joy:
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2017-03-22 14:57:22> @U0AAL4W13: For phantoms, to keep a track of what was researched before, here are a couple of resources: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.fr/2013/02/how-to-make-your-own-ultrasound-gel.html and for an innovative formula (and a field recipe for drc :) ) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0134332.PDF ping <@U0GMX7QUB>
2017-03-22 15:36:18> @U0AAL4W13: Ping <@U4N3UNGS1> ;)
2017-03-22 15:36:20> @U4N3UNGS1: <@U4N3UNGS1> has joined the channel
2017-03-22 15:49:45> @U4N3UNGS1: Je regarde ça merci !
2017-03-22 16:00:38> @U4N3UNGS1: Super article
2017-03-23 15:06:21> @U4N3UNGS1: <@U4N3UNGS1> and commented: Premier résultat concluant pour le gel échographique à base fécule de pomme de terre :
2017-03-23 15:07:06> @U4N3UNGS1: <@U4N3UNGS1>
2017-03-23 15:07:45> @U4N3UNGS1: <@U4N3UNGS1>
2017-03-23 15:49:50> @U0AAL4W13: Excellent !
2017-03-23 15:50:21> @U04DFTZ7D: +1
2017-03-26 11:58:33> @U0AAL4W13: Speaking of #ultramark: seems to be quite cheap, 95$, the seller seems to say it's working ping <@U04DFTZ7D> <@U0B47KC3S> -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATL-ULTRAMARK-4A-UMA-4-ULTRASOUND-W-3-5Mhz-CLA-76-3-0MHz-Access-A-Probes-9203-/302260560444?hash=item466022223c:g:VP4AAOSwNSxVb8e4 ;)
2017-03-26 12:16:37> @U0B47KC3S: <@U0AAL4W13> yes we know about those kind of machines. there are some of them very cheap but to our experience, each time we asked the seller, we had strong doubts that these machines worked
2017-03-26 13:42:09> @U0AAL4W13: I know you know, I recommended them to you ;) The point being that the guy sells this one at 95$, and claims it's working. Thought may be of interest to some :)
2017-03-26 13:46:00> @U0B47KC3S: ok :wink: but we didn’t know of that specific machine. Now we have already a working one !
2017-03-26 13:56:37> @U0AAL4W13: Yup! More seriously, at the association level, we do have a working one, with arrays probes. There is also another machine for mechanical scanning heads (the ultramark), but I believe one component is dead: this could be a cheap source of spare parts.
2017-03-26 13:57:40> @U0AAL4W13: Then, this may also be interesting for @all hackers on this slack to get a cheap ultrasound machine, ideal to set up an instance :)
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2017-04-06 15:03:24> @U0AAL4W13: <@U0AAL4W13>
2017-04-06 15:04:04> @U0AAL4W13: Removable heads :) ping <@U0GMX7QUB> <@U0B47KC3S> <@U07UEJC2H> <@U37GZRZU6>
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2017-04-06 15:07:36> @U38HVMZ6K: :+1::skin-tone-2: removable heads are nice but bring 2 major questions/issues: 1) it makes the mechanical design much more complex, especially for ESD/EMI design and liquid ingress ! 2) is this not already patented ?
2017-04-06 15:11:50> @U0AAL4W13: 1) I guess these are only arrays :) and 2) ... shenzen shrug
2017-04-06 15:20:49> @U38HVMZ6K: 1) yes, but there must be some electrical connection between the head and the body --> possible issues with liquid/water and electrostatic discharge norms for medical devices are a nightmare and every opening in the design is a nice way for discharges to go through... I was just discussing with our EE engineer who went to ESD/EMI test lab yesterday with our device for the... 5th time! and we are now compliant but there were really tricky issues at the beginning 2) shenzen shrug nice for hacking but if targeting the development of a commercial device this needs to be clarified early and eventually licensees negociated with the patent holders (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-04-06 18:32:59> @U3GHS132Q: How can they patented a so simple idea ? We already spoke about replaceable head !
2017-04-06 20:19:24> @U38HVMZ6K: You don't need to have a complex idea/concept to put a patent on it. The only restriction you have is that nobody patented it before you... If you look for dumb patents just go to https://patents.google.com and do a few searches. Welcome in the real world...
2017-04-06 20:23:02> @U38HVMZ6K: And here we are... Patent for replaceable probe head: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20100249598A1
2017-04-06 20:30:26> @U38HVMZ6K: Patented by GE so chances to be able to use it are really low! 1) you ignore the patent, you design your device, you try to market it, GE lawyers knock at your door. Then 2 options: - you abandon your project - you go to trial, loose it and close business 2) you acknowledge the existence of the patent, you go to GE to negotiate it. You can then either get a license to use the patent (often :moneybag: :moneybag: :moneybag:) or close some deal with them where you give them rights to use one of your patents in exchange of free use of their. But for this you must have patents which may interest them in your pocket.
2017-04-06 22:03:35> @U3GHS132Q: I will not negociate anything about a patent.
2017-04-06 22:04:01> @U3GHS132Q: Any git can have the idea of replaceable probe's head.
2017-04-06 22:04:34> @U3GHS132Q: Patent kills innovation, they can go fuck themselves with their patent !
2017-04-06 22:18:55> @U0AAL4W13: ^^
2017-04-06 22:19:40> @U0AAL4W13: Patents protect innovations and innovators who want to monetize their innovation :smiley: (reactions: @U38HVMZ6K)
2017-04-06 22:56:30> @U3GHS132Q: In a company researchers which find idea have to patent them under the name of the company, so clearly the patent does not protect innovators but big capitalist !
2017-04-07 06:26:36> @U38HVMZ6K: Well, most of the patents are filled under the company name but with the individuals' names as inventors. So yes they belong to the company but the inventors are acknowledged. It is disputable but for "real" patents (those involving a technology breakthrough) it is legitimate in my opinion. You get a salary from your company, you use the equipment they provide to do your R&D,... (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-04-07 06:28:34> @U38HVMZ6K: It's often a multi-millions investment to break through a new technology so you with no protection, you do research and invest a lot and a the end of the day your competitor use your technology!
2017-04-07 06:30:21> @U38HVMZ6K: The problem today is that the concept derived a lot and everything is patentable and patented, including some minor concepts. This is what refrains innovation at some point and brings more importance to lawyers than engineers.
2017-04-07 09:59:17> @U0AAL4W13: <@U38HVMZ6K> it seems natural that the companies have ownership of the patents since they paid people to do it and provided necessary équipement, funds, time, ... while at the same time it's great that they include the inventors names in the patent ( it's a different field on the patent) - which can only lead to employee motivation!
2017-04-07 10:00:49> @U0AAL4W13: How does it work at your place ?
2017-04-07 10:03:24> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U0AAL4W13> fully agree! and most of the time companies acknowledge individual inventors in their patent filling.
2017-04-07 10:03:53> @U38HVMZ6K: For the patent of interest here (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20100249598A1) GE put names of all individuals involved in the invention
2017-04-07 10:09:27> @U38HVMZ6K: Patents are attributed to their respective inventor(s) at my current company. e.g. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016059614A2
2017-04-07 10:45:48> @U3GHS132Q: I do not agree with you. Patents just serve to increase the wallet of big actionnaries of companies. If you want your invention to serve the humanity put your invention in public domain !
2017-04-07 10:52:13> @U38HVMZ6K: <@U3GHS132Q> you may agree or not with the concept but this is today's reality. > Patents just serve to increase the wallet of big actionnaries of companies. Patents are meant to protect your intellectual property of being used by competitors without having them paying and involve in any research leading to the invention. Patents do not "increase the wallet of big actionnaries" per se. A patent does not generate any profit by itself unless it is used by someone else who has to pay a license for using it (=deferred contribution to the research and development costs).
2017-04-07 10:53:59> @U38HVMZ6K: Nothing prevents you of patenting an idea/concept and then put it in the public domain if you feel uncomfortable with the concept.
2017-04-07 10:54:54> @U38HVMZ6K: but when you invest millions in developing a technology/device you generally want to protect this investment for a while at least.
2017-04-07 10:55:32> @U3GHS132Q: >this is today's reality For sure it is today's reality, like capitalism is today's reality but do you really think that those systems are fairs ? Do you think that "Tout est au mieux dans le meilleur des mondes possibles" ? If you do not agree with reality you change it and open source will do it
2017-04-07 10:56:50> @U3GHS132Q: Patents protect intellectual property, I agree a bit. But for some devices there is an intrinsic protection. Do you think that everyone in his/her garage can massively product medical probe ?
2017-04-07 10:57:42> @U3GHS132Q: Moreover they patent concept than can save people life ! Seriously they prefer to protect their "intellectual property" before saving life !
2017-04-07 11:01:56> @U38HVMZ6K: > But for some devices there is an intrinsic protection. Do you think that everyone in his/her garage can massively product medical probe ? The problem is not with individuals producing probes in their garage. This doesn't and will probably never exist. The real concern is between large companies (think GE vs Philips for example) where both have resources and technology to produce complex devices. Intrinsic protection does not exist (see all chinese copies of medical devices).
2017-04-07 11:04:46> @U38HVMZ6K: I don't want to argue further since I know that we have radical different approaches and cannot agree on that point. After several years in the industry your vision will for sure evolve and you'll see that everything open, everything free is a nice concept but very difficult to support.
2017-04-07 11:07:28> @U3GHS132Q: > cannot agree on that point The only point we will agree is that we will not agree on patent. > several years in the industry The farer from industry I am the better I feel
2017-04-07 11:43:17> @U0AAL4W13: Bah to make it short you need industry if you want to make a good product, on scale, with good support for your client.
2017-04-07 11:44:36> @U0AAL4W13: However, software and hardware in this discussion are two completely different things: even Linus said that Libre for hardware was not as good/necessary as for software (reactions: @U38HVMZ6K)
2017-04-12 20:10:07> @U4YCKBDR8: <@U4YCKBDR8> has joined the channel
2017-04-13 09:03:44> @U0AAL4W13: https://www.coursera.org/learn/healthcare-innovation ping <@U38HVMZ6K> because you like courses, and <@U1PAGSKGU> since you seemed to understand the business aspect :) but this course is also wider and covers plenty of aspects which we need to work on
2017-04-13 09:03:46> @U1PAGSKGU: <@U1PAGSKGU> has joined the channel
2017-04-14 02:42:14> @U4YF0KAJU: <@U4YF0KAJU> has joined the channel
2017-05-05 01:03:42> @U1PAGSKGU: <@U0AAL4W13> I tend to talk and think from the Lean Startup Methodology (the book by Eric Ries I am reading right now). I think it will be helpful in we approach everything from the customer development point of view and remove anything that does not bring value to the customer. This will help us focus for our next iteration.
2017-05-05 13:03:25> @U0AAL4W13: Yup agree! This goes by many names, and I believe it's the approach taken by the association. Short iteration cycles are at the heart of the dev strategy lead by <@U37GZRZU6> - we just need to get better and better at it ;)
2017-05-05 13:04:52> @U0AAL4W13: True also that we (as product managers) should be able to capture a direct relationship with customers: more doctors should be there in presence to chat with the product developers!
2017-05-05 13:06:13> @U0AAL4W13: (BTW <@U1PAGSKGU> if you're interested there a superb course on Healthcare product innovation on coursera at the moment - it's an awesome way to get into these questions of product dvt, client management and such - biz dev in a way ;) )
2017-05-05 13:12:24> @U38HVMZ6K: Fully agree with the approach and to have final users/consumers involved as early as possible but some trade-offs and we'll defined processes have to be put in place at the same time.
2017-05-05 13:13:40> @U38HVMZ6K: The risk when involving end users early is to have as many opinions as there are end users involved and stucking the design and development. (reactions: @U0AAL4W13)
2017-05-05 13:32:55> @U38HVMZ6K: We experienced this when we onboarded nurses and MDs in our project. Everyone had his perception on usability and how the device should perform. This ended up in many cosmetic (UI) and unimportant changes consuming development resources which would have been needed for real product improvement (algorithms, performance,...)
2017-05-05 13:34:10> @U38HVMZ6K: We are now 6 months later, many new people arrived in our customer's usability team and they now ask to come back to what we had a year ago...
2017-05-05 13:34:35> @U38HVMZ6K: So taking users input is definitely good but with caution.
2017-05-05 13:36:48> @U38HVMZ6K: Regarding the incremental approach, I'm more for setting the final target/requirements in stone early and then use an incremental approach to reach them than to set reasonable goals at the beginning and build new goals requirements later.
2017-05-05 13:41:39> @U38HVMZ6K: The problem with evolving requirements in medical device development is that you always have the full product lifecycle in front of the input requirements (V model). If your input requirements change, the whole documentation, tests,... has to be updated, re-aligned, re-validated,...
2017-05-05 13:44:14> @U38HVMZ6K: The best approach is to set the boundaries (fixed input requirements and fixed validation plan) early in the project and then "iterate within the V model" instead of iterating on multiple successive V development life cycle for every new update on the specs
2017-05-05 13:45:10> @U38HVMZ6K: the difference is subtle but can have a huge impact on documentation overhead, V&V activities and general time line
2017-05-05 14:07:06> @U1PAGSKGU: <@U0AAL4W13> <@U38HVMZ6K> I propose we lean up the groups involved according to division in the hardware. Right now some groups are quite general and there is too much debate and too less development. I propose the probe head thing be fixed to a beam forming array as the traditional probes.There had been much r &d already and I think that should be the conclusion. That we merge the embedded group with the Jerome hardware group so that the they have full ownership and clear deliverables. Likewise merge the DSP group with the android app group so that they concentrate solely on developing the front end. Finaly as rbo says sets a design in stone and work incrementally to improve it. The first thing would be to get price for that design. The price should be a powerful signal on where improvements in dsp and design can cut hardware cost.
2017-05-05 14:10:47> @U1PAGSKGU: <@U0AAL4W13> There are interesting courses. If somebody has taken them please share with us some of the wisdom from it.
2017-05-05 14:26:16> @U0AAL4W13: <@U1PAGSKGU> let's stick to single element. We have touched anything to beam forming and are "naked" when it comes to it. Let's have this single element "mvp" as a first target / iteration. :bowtie:
2017-05-05 14:28:32> @U0AAL4W13: <@U1PAGSKGU> <@U38HVMZ6K> I think that time is ripe indeed to consolidate what exists first (and what has been done) - then for the next capTech think about the next cycle. OK with it <@U37GZRZU6>? (reactions: @U37GZRZU6)
2017-05-05 16:50:50> @U0AAL4W13: <@U37GZRZU6> don't worry we read (and contribute to) the gitbook :)
2017-05-05 16:51:08> @U0AAL4W13: Even if we still have progress to make :p
2017-05-05 16:56:19> @U37GZRZU6: <@U0AAL4W13> <@U1PAGSKGU> <@U38HVMZ6K> that's the whole point of what I have been campaigning for last months... as described in the outputs of the capMeth and in our poor lonely prototyping gitbook that obviously no one reads and no one wants to contribute to :face_with_head_bandage: :slightly_frowning_face: :cry: :sob: Here it is : https://echopen.gitbooks.io/echopen_prototyping/content/howto/method.html As a reminder, one of the issues we are aiming to address is the decision making (like the suggestions <@U1PAGSKGU> just made in this channel) - from now on, those kind of decisions shouldn't be made by isolated contributors (because we know that this kind of workflow ends up with waste of time/energy, reinventing the wheel etc...) but should rather be discussed and solved at the scale of the echOpen community. This is why we made a CapMeth recently, anyone was welcome to give his inputs about the methods, workflow and so on. This is why we'll begin each development iteration with a CapTech where everyone can give his opinion about the next tasks to fulfill. The idea is to avoid the exhausting perpetual questioning of some decisions that have been taken months ago. FYI we are precisely at a moment where the priority task is to fix, test, and document the device + in parallel write the specs in stone for good. These are the necessary steps to be fulfilled before we continue the technical improvements. As I already said, anyone wanting to help is welcome.
2017-05-05 17:19:24> @U37GZRZU6: --> just let me remind the amazing docathon happening this week-end :rocket: :rocket: :rocket: (reactions: @U0B47KC3S)
2017-05-05 17:44:48> @U1PAGSKGU: Luc We would want to do something which goes straight to the customer and the beam former is the way to do it. It has already been implemented elsewhere, so it is nothing new.
2017-05-07 19:37:52> @U5ALNPVDL: <@U5ALNPVDL> has joined the channel
2017-05-13 08:35:26> @U0AAL4W13: To come back to the topic of gel raised by <@U4N3UNGS1>, a good article at http://emj.bmj.com/content/34/4/227?rss=1
2017-05-13 11:06:28> @U0AAL4W13: And pierre talking about echopen: https://www.lequotidiendumedecin.fr/actualites/article/2017/05/11/une-revolution-annoncee-voir-au-lieu-decouter_847329

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